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Electric Field Simulation Problem

Posted 24 gen 2011, 13:11 GMT-5 Low-Frequency Electromagnetics Version 4.3, Version 4.3a 25 Replies

Woon Huei Chai
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Hi,

I am trying to create a plot of electric field, but i failed to do it.

I created a simple model of column, and I used the physics of "Magnetic and Electric Fields".

I defined a electrical potential (eg.10V) on the top surface of the column and the ground on the bottom surface of the column.

I tried using the studies of "Stationary" and "Time Dependent" and ran it but I cant manage to create the plot.

I would like to look for your advice since I have stuck at this point for a long time.

Looking for your reply in soonest, thank you.

Woon Huei

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25 Replies Last Post 16 nov 2016, 10:45 GMT-5
Roman Tukanov
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Posted: 1 decade ago 25 gen 2011, 01:02 GMT-5
Hi!

1) First try Electrostatics (es) physics.
2) Use Stationary solver.
3) To get the correct field you need to add to your model the electrodes: draw thin (you can take 0.01m, for example) cylindrical electrodes with radius equal to radius of your coloumn on the bottom and on the top of the coloumn.
4) Assign material to both of the electrodes (copper, for example).
5) Assign Boudary conditions to the electrodes: to every boundary of cylinder, that forms the electrode (6 boundaries in 3D). For example, Electric Potential to the upper electrode, and Ground to the bottom electrode.
6) Mesh.
7) Get the result =) I've got quite nice field. Sorry, I have no ability to send the file.

To get more correct field I recommend you to surrond your model with the sphere of air.

Good luck!
Hi! 1) First try Electrostatics (es) physics. 2) Use Stationary solver. 3) To get the correct field you need to add to your model the electrodes: draw thin (you can take 0.01m, for example) cylindrical electrodes with radius equal to radius of your coloumn on the bottom and on the top of the coloumn. 4) Assign material to both of the electrodes (copper, for example). 5) Assign Boudary conditions to the electrodes: to every boundary of cylinder, that forms the electrode (6 boundaries in 3D). For example, Electric Potential to the upper electrode, and Ground to the bottom electrode. 6) Mesh. 7) Get the result =) I've got quite nice field. Sorry, I have no ability to send the file. To get more correct field I recommend you to surrond your model with the sphere of air. Good luck!
Woon Huei Chai
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Posted: 1 decade ago 25 gen 2011, 10:56 GMT-5
Hi Roman,

Thanks for your reply,

I will try it out.
Hi Roman, Thanks for your reply, I will try it out.
Woon Huei Chai
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Posted: 1 decade ago 25 gen 2011, 11:27 GMT-5
Hi Roman,

Why was I just able to create electrical potential in my plots instead of electrical field?

Did I do less any steps?

Hi Roman, Why was I just able to create electrical potential in my plots instead of electrical field? Did I do less any steps?
Roman Tukanov
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Posted: 1 decade ago 25 gen 2011, 22:52 GMT-5
Hi!

As I understand you've got the correct electric potential distribution?

If the problem is solved correctly, you just need to visualize the electric field.
1) Click (right mouse button) on 3D Plot Group 1 in Model Builder.
2) Choose the way you want to plot the result (Surface, for example), press Settings button.
3) In Expressin field instead of V type sqrt(es.Ex*es.Ex+es.Ey*es.Ey+es.Ez*es.Ez).
4) Press Plot button.
5) Get the Electric Field distribution =)

Good luck!
Hi! As I understand you've got the correct electric potential distribution? If the problem is solved correctly, you just need to visualize the electric field. 1) Click (right mouse button) on 3D Plot Group 1 in Model Builder. 2) Choose the way you want to plot the result (Surface, for example), press Settings button. 3) In Expressin field instead of V type sqrt(es.Ex*es.Ex+es.Ey*es.Ey+es.Ez*es.Ez). 4) Press Plot button. 5) Get the Electric Field distribution =) Good luck!
Woon Huei Chai
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Posted: 1 decade ago 25 gen 2011, 23:58 GMT-5
Yeah, I did it.

Thanks Roman!
Yeah, I did it. Thanks Roman!
Roman Tukanov
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Posted: 1 decade ago 26 gen 2011, 00:10 GMT-5
You're welcome =)
You're welcome =)
Irfan Ahmad
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Posted: 1 decade ago 20 gen 2012, 10:02 GMT-5

Hi!

As I understand you've got the correct electric potential distribution?

If the problem is solved correctly, you just need to visualize the electric field.
1) Click (right mouse button) on 3D Plot Group 1 in Model Builder.
2) Choose the way you want to plot the result (Surface, for example), press Settings button.
3) In Expressin field instead of V type sqrt(es.Ex*es.Ex+es.Ey*es.Ey+es.Ez*es.Ez).
4) Press Plot button.
5) Get the Electric Field distribution =)

Good luck!

[QUOTE] Hi! As I understand you've got the correct electric potential distribution? If the problem is solved correctly, you just need to visualize the electric field. 1) Click (right mouse button) on 3D Plot Group 1 in Model Builder. 2) Choose the way you want to plot the result (Surface, for example), press Settings button. 3) In Expressin field instead of V type sqrt(es.Ex*es.Ex+es.Ey*es.Ey+es.Ez*es.Ez). 4) Press Plot button. 5) Get the Electric Field distribution =) Good luck! [/QUOTE]
Ivar KJELBERG COMSOL Multiphysics(r) fan, retired, former "Senior Expert" at CSEM SA (CH)
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Posted: 1 decade ago 20 gen 2012, 16:59 GMT-5
Hi

that is the equation for the magnitude (norm) of the electric vector field (Ex,Ey,Ez) for ES physics

--
Good luck
Ivar
Hi that is the equation for the magnitude (norm) of the electric vector field (Ex,Ey,Ez) for ES physics -- Good luck Ivar
Muthuraman Chinnadurai
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Posted: 1 decade ago 7 set 2012, 19:29 GMT-4
Thank you very much,am a beginner and i faced the same problem.
Thank you very much,am a beginner and i faced the same problem.
Muthuraman Chinnadurai
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Posted: 1 decade ago 7 set 2012, 19:29 GMT-4
Thank you very much,am a beginner and i faced the same problem.
Thank you very much,am a beginner and i faced the same problem.
Ivar KJELBERG COMSOL Multiphysics(r) fan, retired, former "Senior Expert" at CSEM SA (CH)
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Posted: 1 decade ago 8 set 2012, 07:35 GMT-4
Hi

then do not forget to turn on the "options - preferences - equation view" so you can scroll through the equations of comsol (unfortunately they are not sorted so you must search a bit) I find that helps to understand the physics, you have the description of all these now in the doc (4.3) try the search there too

--
Good luck
Ivar
Hi then do not forget to turn on the "options - preferences - equation view" so you can scroll through the equations of comsol (unfortunately they are not sorted so you must search a bit) I find that helps to understand the physics, you have the description of all these now in the doc (4.3) try the search there too -- Good luck Ivar
Jenna Greaser
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Posted: 1 decade ago 5 dic 2012, 22:36 GMT-5
Hi,

I am trying to follow this explanation and believe I have done all of the steps, but I don't think my answer makes sense. I want to model the electric field between two gold electrodes, each on one side of a pyramid filled with air. How can I get the electric field lines to show? Is this not possible with air in between? My aim is to try and model electrokinetic transport effects. The applied potential will cause a solution to be expelled from the pyramidal reservoir. I have attached my model.

Thank you very much.

Jenna
Hi, I am trying to follow this explanation and believe I have done all of the steps, but I don't think my answer makes sense. I want to model the electric field between two gold electrodes, each on one side of a pyramid filled with air. How can I get the electric field lines to show? Is this not possible with air in between? My aim is to try and model electrokinetic transport effects. The applied potential will cause a solution to be expelled from the pyramidal reservoir. I have attached my model. Thank you very much. Jenna

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Mohammadreza Barzegaran
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Posted: 1 decade ago 6 dic 2012, 00:06 GMT-5
Mr Tukanov

I believe your explanation helped everyone, this can be easily inferred from the view number of this post. since the question was also about time domain solver. would you explain how we should consider an AC function as the boundary in time domain solution. I considered the input as a terminal voltage to a surface of cube or cylinder and assigned waveform function e.g. wv1(t/1 [s]) and solved it but it showed all result as zero.


Hi!

As I understand you've got the correct electric potential distribution?

If the problem is solved correctly, you just need to visualize the electric field.
1) Click (right mouse button) on 3D Plot Group 1 in Model Builder.
2) Choose the way you want to plot the result (Surface, for example), press Settings button.
3) In Expressin field instead of V type sqrt(es.Ex*es.Ex+es.Ey*es.Ey+es.Ez*es.Ez).
4) Press Plot button.
5) Get the Electric Field distribution =)

Good luck!


Mr Tukanov I believe your explanation helped everyone, this can be easily inferred from the view number of this post. since the question was also about time domain solver. would you explain how we should consider an AC function as the boundary in time domain solution. I considered the input as a terminal voltage to a surface of cube or cylinder and assigned waveform function e.g. wv1(t/1 [s]) and solved it but it showed all result as zero. [QUOTE] Hi! As I understand you've got the correct electric potential distribution? If the problem is solved correctly, you just need to visualize the electric field. 1) Click (right mouse button) on 3D Plot Group 1 in Model Builder. 2) Choose the way you want to plot the result (Surface, for example), press Settings button. 3) In Expressin field instead of V type sqrt(es.Ex*es.Ex+es.Ey*es.Ey+es.Ez*es.Ez). 4) Press Plot button. 5) Get the Electric Field distribution =) Good luck! [/QUOTE]
Eric Lämmel
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Posted: 1 decade ago 6 dic 2012, 02:42 GMT-5

Hi,

I am trying to follow this explanation and believe I have done all of the steps, but I don't think my answer makes sense. I want to model the electric field between two gold electrodes, each on one side of a pyramid filled with air. How can I get the electric field lines to show? Is this not possible with air in between? My aim is to try and model electrokinetic transport effects. The applied potential will cause a solution to be expelled from the pyramidal reservoir. I have attached my model.

Thank you very much.

Jenna


Hi,

I see a couple of problems with your model:

first of all, with a conductivity of 0 in electrostatics you cannot see electrokinetic transport effects. In reality, with a perfect insulator between two electrodes, there won't be any carrier movement because there are no charge carriers.

secondly, your mesh is very coarse with a minimum element quality of 0.02. This should be improved.

last remark is, I don't think electrostatics is the correct interface for modelling electrokinetic transport effects. It should include electrochemistry.

Bye
[QUOTE] Hi, I am trying to follow this explanation and believe I have done all of the steps, but I don't think my answer makes sense. I want to model the electric field between two gold electrodes, each on one side of a pyramid filled with air. How can I get the electric field lines to show? Is this not possible with air in between? My aim is to try and model electrokinetic transport effects. The applied potential will cause a solution to be expelled from the pyramidal reservoir. I have attached my model. Thank you very much. Jenna [/QUOTE] Hi, I see a couple of problems with your model: first of all, with a conductivity of 0 in electrostatics you cannot see electrokinetic transport effects. In reality, with a perfect insulator between two electrodes, there won't be any carrier movement because there are no charge carriers. secondly, your mesh is very coarse with a minimum element quality of 0.02. This should be improved. last remark is, I don't think electrostatics is the correct interface for modelling electrokinetic transport effects. It should include electrochemistry. Bye
Ivar KJELBERG COMSOL Multiphysics(r) fan, retired, former "Senior Expert" at CSEM SA (CH)
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Posted: 1 decade ago 7 dic 2012, 02:42 GMT-5
Hi

I have a little issue with the formula

sqrt(es.Ex*es.Ex+es.Ey*es.Ey+es.Ez*es.Ez).

What if E is complex (which happens mostly in ACDC or RF but also elsewhere ?)
We tend to forget that COMSOL works on the scalar values of any vector field, and that any scalar might be complex, but when we type Ex for the x component of the electric field vector in a plot we get by "convention" real(Ex) displayed ONLY!
So if we suspect that Ex is complex one should also plot imag(Ex) to check ! ;)

So normally the norm is rather:

normE = sqrt(realdot(mf.Ex,mf.Ex)+realdot(mf.Ey,mf.Ey)+realdot(mf.Ez,mf.Ez))

where realdot() operator (check the doc and help) is the real value of the complex "dot" product of a complex numbers C and D

realdot(C,D) behaves like real(C*conj(D)) = real((real(C)+i*imag(C))*conj(real(D)+i*imag(D))) = real(C)*real(D)+imag(C)*imag(D)

the realdot operator has further features for the derivative calculations see the help

As in many cases we think real values but we get it easily wrong when thee are complex values ;)
--
Good luck
Ivar
Hi I have a little issue with the formula sqrt(es.Ex*es.Ex+es.Ey*es.Ey+es.Ez*es.Ez). What if E is complex (which happens mostly in ACDC or RF but also elsewhere ?) We tend to forget that COMSOL works on the scalar values of any vector field, and that any scalar might be complex, but when we type Ex for the x component of the electric field vector in a plot we get by "convention" real(Ex) displayed ONLY! So if we suspect that Ex is complex one should also plot imag(Ex) to check ! ;) So normally the norm is rather: normE = sqrt(realdot(mf.Ex,mf.Ex)+realdot(mf.Ey,mf.Ey)+realdot(mf.Ez,mf.Ez)) where realdot() operator (check the doc and help) is the real value of the complex "dot" product of a complex numbers C and D realdot(C,D) behaves like real(C*conj(D)) = real((real(C)+i*imag(C))*conj(real(D)+i*imag(D))) = real(C)*real(D)+imag(C)*imag(D) the realdot operator has further features for the derivative calculations see the help As in many cases we think real values but we get it easily wrong when thee are complex values ;) -- Good luck Ivar
Hayum Razali
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Posted: 1 decade ago 11 giu 2013, 09:57 GMT-4
Hi,

I'm new to COMSOL.. currently I'm working on a simulation to study the electric field along an insulator. I've been using the method told by Roman, but unfortunately the electric field simulated was not as expected...the electric field on the energized end should be higher than that of the grounded end, but from the simulation result the electric field level is same for both end... anyone can help me?
Hi, I'm new to COMSOL.. currently I'm working on a simulation to study the electric field along an insulator. I've been using the method told by Roman, but unfortunately the electric field simulated was not as expected...the electric field on the energized end should be higher than that of the grounded end, but from the simulation result the electric field level is same for both end... anyone can help me?

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Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant
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Posted: 1 decade ago 11 giu 2013, 11:21 GMT-4

Hi

there is no reason why the fields should be different on both ends. Don't mix up electric field and electric potential.

Cheers
Edgar

--
Edgar J. Kaiser
www.emphys.com
Hi there is no reason why the fields should be different on both ends. Don't mix up electric field and electric potential. Cheers Edgar -- Edgar J. Kaiser http://www.emphys.com
Hayum Razali
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Posted: 1 decade ago 11 giu 2013, 19:21 GMT-4
Hi Edgar, thanks for the reply.

By the way, what do you mean by not mixing up electric potential and electric field, I thought we can only see the electric field if an electric potential is applied to the material? besides, I've seen in many journal stating that the electric field at the energized end is higher than the grounded one..
Hi Edgar, thanks for the reply. By the way, what do you mean by not mixing up electric potential and electric field, I thought we can only see the electric field if an electric potential is applied to the material? besides, I've seen in many journal stating that the electric field at the energized end is higher than the grounded one..
Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant
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Posted: 1 decade ago 12 giu 2013, 03:26 GMT-4

Hi,

what I meant is that in your case the potentials are different on both sides, but your setup seems to be symmetric, so the fields should also be symmetric. The field exists because of the potential difference. Only the difference counts not the values. You can always add a potential constant to an electrostatic assembly without changing the field. So if you have say, +15 kV on one end and 0 (ground) at the other, you could add -15 kV to both ends, reversing the situation. It will not change the field.

Regarding any publication, you should carfully check the setup. There may other parts around that make the situation non-symmetric.

Also your terminology is a bit misleading. In your setup there is no 'energized' end. You should talk about potentials.

Cheers
Edgar

--
Edgar J. Kaiser
www.emphys.com
Hi, what I meant is that in your case the potentials are different on both sides, but your setup seems to be symmetric, so the fields should also be symmetric. The field exists because of the potential difference. Only the difference counts not the values. You can always add a potential constant to an electrostatic assembly without changing the field. So if you have say, +15 kV on one end and 0 (ground) at the other, you could add -15 kV to both ends, reversing the situation. It will not change the field. Regarding any publication, you should carfully check the setup. There may other parts around that make the situation non-symmetric. Also your terminology is a bit misleading. In your setup there is no 'energized' end. You should talk about potentials. Cheers Edgar -- Edgar J. Kaiser http://www.emphys.com
Hayum Razali
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Posted: 1 decade ago 13 giu 2013, 08:47 GMT-4
thanks a lot Edgar.. really appreciate the help and tips
thanks a lot Edgar.. really appreciate the help and tips
Harshada Pendse
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Posted: 1 decade ago 3 dic 2013, 17:15 GMT-5
I am trying to assign voltages to the conductors in my model to get the electric field for a coaxial cylinder. I am not getting any option about assigning boundary conditions to the electrodes. I am getting options like charge conservation , zero charge and initial values under physics for electrostatic sub-module. It will be useful to know how to assign boundary conditions for the model.
Thanks.
I am trying to assign voltages to the conductors in my model to get the electric field for a coaxial cylinder. I am not getting any option about assigning boundary conditions to the electrodes. I am getting options like charge conservation , zero charge and initial values under physics for electrostatic sub-module. It will be useful to know how to assign boundary conditions for the model. Thanks.
Eunice Chen
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Posted: 1 decade ago 2 lug 2014, 11:53 GMT-4
I am currently making electric field plots too. I was wondering if the built in Electric Field norm (es.normE) is the same as sqrt(es.Ex^2 + es.Ey^2 + es.Ez^2) ?
I am currently making electric field plots too. I was wondering if the built in Electric Field norm (es.normE) is the same as sqrt(es.Ex^2 + es.Ey^2 + es.Ez^2) ?
Dinesh Sharma
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Posted: 9 years ago 1 feb 2016, 07:51 GMT-5
hello,

can you guide me how to generate the near-field pattern of index-guiding Photonic Crystal Fiber.
hello, can you guide me how to generate the near-field pattern of index-guiding Photonic Crystal Fiber.
Taghreed Said
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Posted: 8 years ago 14 nov 2016, 15:01 GMT-5
hello!
i use the AC/DC- electrostatic physics to study the corona onset voltage with using electrode to plate (ground). and i found that electric field inside the electrode not equal zero
hello! i use the AC/DC- electrostatic physics to study the corona onset voltage with using electrode to plate (ground). and i found that electric field inside the electrode not equal zero
Taghreed Said
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Posted: 8 years ago 16 nov 2016, 10:45 GMT-5
Hi
I am new to comsol, I study the electric field between charged and ground electrode. and I found that the field between the two electrode equal zero and there is afield inside charged electrode
Hi I am new to comsol, I study the electric field between charged and ground electrode. and I found that the field between the two electrode equal zero and there is afield inside charged electrode

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