Discussion Closed This discussion was created more than 6 months ago and has been closed. To start a new discussion with a link back to this one, click here.

Multiple Loads With Different Frequencies In Frequency Domain Study

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Hi, I'm trying to evaluate the Transmission Loss on a glass panel when subjected to two different loads at the same time. In particular one is a boundary load representing an incident acoustic wave and has to be swept in frequency from 35 Hz to 4000 Hz; the other one is an edge load with a fixed frequency of 100 kHz that causes the propagation of a plane wave on the surface of the panel. I have to evaluate the Transmission Loss as a function of frequency (in the range 35-4000 Hz) considering both loads. To do so I have to perform a frequency domain study but the problem is that I want to vary the frequency of the boundary load only (from 35 Hz to 4000 Hz), while I want to keep the frequency of the edge load fixed at 100 kHz and consider both their contributions. Does anyone know a way to do it?

Thank you in advance, Tommaso


8 Replies Last Post 6 set 2021, 12:40 GMT-4
Mark Cops Triton Systems, Inc.

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 3 years ago 28 ago 2021, 20:34 GMT-4

For a linear system both loads can be simulated separately the system response can be appropriately summed.

For a linear system both loads can be simulated separately the system response can be appropriately summed.

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 3 years ago 29 ago 2021, 07:11 GMT-4

Thank you for your reply. The problem is that I have to keep the frequency of one load fixed to 100kHz. So if I do the two studies separately when I combine them the range from 35 to 4000Hz remains unchanged (this is the one due to the other load which varies in this range). How can I evaluate how the Transmission Loss changes in this range of interest (35-4000 Hz) due to the presence of the load at 100kHz together with the one with frequency from 35 to 4000Hz? Thank you,

Tommaso

Thank you for your reply. The problem is that I have to keep the frequency of one load fixed to 100kHz. So if I do the two studies separately when I combine them the range from 35 to 4000Hz remains unchanged (this is the one due to the other load which varies in this range). How can I evaluate how the Transmission Loss changes in this range of interest (35-4000 Hz) due to the presence of the load at 100kHz together with the one with frequency from 35 to 4000Hz? Thank you, Tommaso

Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 3 years ago 29 ago 2021, 08:00 GMT-4

Tommaso,

the straigthforward move is to do a time dependent study. But that comes at a price because you need to resolve the 100 kHz wave in time and space and you need to run it long enough to see the dynamic steady state. Can the problem be reduced to 2D?

Cheers Edgar

-------------------
Edgar J. Kaiser
emPhys Physical Technology
www.emphys.com
Tommaso, the straigthforward move is to do a time dependent study. But that comes at a price because you need to resolve the 100 kHz wave in time and space and you need to run it long enough to see the dynamic steady state. Can the problem be reduced to 2D? Cheers Edgar

Dave Greve Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 3 years ago 29 ago 2021, 12:51 GMT-4

Unless there is a nonlinearity that leads to a failure of superposition, a time dependent analysis will lead to the same result as summing the two solutions- but at a considerable computational cost.

Now if superposition holds- summing the frequency dependent solutions is the way to go.

Unless there is a nonlinearity that leads to a failure of superposition, a time dependent analysis will lead to the same result as summing the two solutions- but at a considerable computational cost. Now if superposition holds- summing the frequency dependent solutions is the way to go.

Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 3 years ago 29 ago 2021, 13:14 GMT-4
Updated: 3 years ago 29 ago 2021, 13:17 GMT-4

Just wondering how you would do that practically in this case. The two signals are applied on different boundaries leading to totally different excitation modes. We need to assume that the 100 kHz excitation affects the lower frequency signal. That is actually what Tommaso wants to find out as I understand it.

-------------------
Edgar J. Kaiser
emPhys Physical Technology
www.emphys.com
Just wondering how you would do that practically in this case. The two signals are applied on different boundaries leading to totally different excitation modes. We need to assume that the 100 kHz excitation affects the lower frequency signal. That is actually what Tommaso wants to find out as I understand it.

Dave Greve Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 3 years ago 29 ago 2021, 14:03 GMT-4

The question is HOW the two waves interact. Suppose a lower-frequency wave has high amplitude and it deforms the plate signfiicantly. Then propagation of the higher-frequency wave will be different (and modulated by the low-frequency wave). But this probably requires a LOT of displacement, far more than is likely in most physical situations.

In the non-destructive testing world there are some researchers who use harmonic or mixing wave generation to detect cracks. In these case the cracks provide the nonlinear behavior that results in wave mixing.

In the absence of a nonlinear interaction (caused by large displacements, cracks, or other phenomena) the waves do not interact.

The question is HOW the two waves interact. Suppose a lower-frequency wave has high amplitude and it deforms the plate signfiicantly. Then propagation of the higher-frequency wave will be different (and modulated by the low-frequency wave). But this probably requires a LOT of displacement, far more than is likely in most physical situations. In the non-destructive testing world there are some researchers who use harmonic or mixing wave generation to detect cracks. In these case the cracks provide the nonlinear behavior that results in wave mixing. In the absence of a nonlinear interaction (caused by large displacements, cracks, or other phenomena) the waves do not interact.

Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 3 years ago 29 ago 2021, 16:15 GMT-4

Well, I think Tommaso got a few hints to consider. It really depends on what this is about in detail.

-------------------
Edgar J. Kaiser
emPhys Physical Technology
www.emphys.com
Well, I think Tommaso got a few hints to consider. It really depends on what this is about in detail.

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 3 years ago 6 set 2021, 12:40 GMT-4

First of all thank you for your replies. I'm trying to do the superposition of effects by doing: -a frequency domain study at 100kHz with the edge load only - a frequency domain study in the range 35-4000Hz with only the boundary load My question is how can I sum the responses properly in Comsol?

First of all thank you for your replies. I'm trying to do the superposition of effects by doing: -a frequency domain study at 100kHz with the edge load only - a frequency domain study in the range 35-4000Hz with only the boundary load My question is how can I sum the responses properly in Comsol?

Note that while COMSOL employees may participate in the discussion forum, COMSOL® software users who are on-subscription should submit their questions via the Support Center for a more comprehensive response from the Technical Support team.