Discussion Closed This discussion was created more than 6 months ago and has been closed. To start a new discussion with a link back to this one, click here.

EMC Filters simulation

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Good afternoon,

I'm interested in simulating EMC filters as the one in the attachment. It includes a common mode choke and capacitors, mounted in a metallic case and it works between 10 kHz and 100 MHz.

Is it possible to extract filter attenuation in standard impedance conditions (input and output impedance = 50 Ohm) with COMSOL AC/DC Module?

Thanks for your replies.



6 Replies Last Post 5 mag 2022, 10:24 GMT-4
Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 2 years ago 3 mag 2022, 11:02 GMT-4

I think this should better be done in a classical circuit simulator such as SPICE.

-------------------
Edgar J. Kaiser
emPhys Physical Technology
www.emphys.com
I think this should better be done in a classical circuit simulator such as SPICE.

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 2 years ago 3 mag 2022, 12:58 GMT-4

i agree that using a spice simulator would be better here. You can do this in comsol using the circuit simulator. It works by you writing a netlist but other programs do use a schematic gui. If you are set on attempting 3D, this would be a starting point for winding a toroid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVf2tkyRaJA

There are many details for the 3D approach to work. You may end up spending more time getting that to work than doing this in a circuit simulator.

i agree that using a spice simulator would be better here. You can do this in comsol using the circuit simulator. It works by you writing a netlist but other programs do use a schematic gui. If you are set on attempting 3D, this would be a starting point for winding a toroid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVf2tkyRaJA There are many details for the 3D approach to work. You may end up spending more time getting that to work than doing this in a circuit simulator.

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 2 years ago 5 mag 2022, 07:27 GMT-4

i agree that using a spice simulator would be better here. You can do this in comsol using the circuit simulator. It works by you writing a netlist but other programs do use a schematic gui. If you are set on attempting 3D, this would be a starting point for winding a toroid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVf2tkyRaJA

There are many details for the 3D approach to work. You may end up spending more time getting that to work than doing this in a circuit simulator.

I have some experience in SPICE simulation but, even thou the approach is way more easy than FEM simulation, quality of results is poor since you can't take into account mutual interactions between components. I'm quite sure 3D simulation can fill that gap but my concern is about the time spent in building a model with many components (capacitors, chokes and conductors), as well as time spent for meshing and simulating.

The video you posted is interesting. It seems more complex systems than a simple inductor are hard to be simulated. I was expecting a part of the tutorial was about setting sources (a test voltage for instance). Isn't there a part 2 or any other video about it?

Thank you very much

>i agree that using a spice simulator would be better here. You can do this in comsol using the circuit simulator. It works by you writing a netlist but other programs do use a schematic gui. If you are set on attempting 3D, this would be a starting point for winding a toroid. > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVf2tkyRaJA > >There are many details for the 3D approach to work. You may end up spending more time getting that to work than doing this in a circuit simulator. I have some experience in SPICE simulation but, even thou the approach is way more easy than FEM simulation, quality of results is poor since you can't take into account mutual interactions between components. I'm quite sure 3D simulation can fill that gap but my concern is about the time spent in building a model with many components (capacitors, chokes and conductors), as well as time spent for meshing and simulating. The video you posted is interesting. It seems more complex systems than a simple inductor are hard to be simulated. I was expecting a part of the tutorial was about setting sources (a test voltage for instance). Isn't there a part 2 or any other video about it? Thank you very much

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 2 years ago 5 mag 2022, 09:08 GMT-4

I don't know if there is another video. In your journey you will have to source many leads to get your simulation to work. There is no one location where everything is deposited. There are quite a few inductor models solved in the comsol application library but it may not directly help you.

You can do more complicated components in another 3D dwg tool. It can be easier to do it that way but you are limited in dimensional parameterizing within comsol. Also, since you want to do a broadband simulation using modeling magnetic materials, this is pretty challenging. I might offer a suggestion in a piecemeal approach.

I don't know if there is another video. In your journey you will have to source many leads to get your simulation to work. There is no one location where everything is deposited. There are quite a few inductor models solved in the comsol application library but it may not directly help you. You can do more complicated components in another 3D dwg tool. It can be easier to do it that way but you are limited in dimensional parameterizing within comsol. Also, since you want to do a broadband simulation using modeling magnetic materials, this is pretty challenging. I might offer a suggestion in a piecemeal approach.

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 2 years ago 5 mag 2022, 09:41 GMT-4

I don't know if there is another video. In your journey you will have to source many leads to get your simulation to work. There is no one location where everything is deposited. There are quite a few inductor models solved in the comsol application library but it may not directly help you.

You can do more complicated components in another 3D dwg tool. It can be easier to do it that way but you are limited in dimensional parameterizing within comsol. Also, since you want to do a broadband simulation using modeling magnetic materials, this is pretty challenging. I might offer a suggestion in a piecemeal approach.

Well, a I said, the product I want to simulate consists of a metallic housing with a CM choke and some capacitors in it, connected by means of floating conductors. So, is there a limited number of elements for a mesh with COMSOL?
Can I ask you which 3D tool are you referring to?

As I said, mine is a feasibility study of filter 3D simulation by means of any suitable software.

Thanks

>I don't know if there is another video. In your journey you will have to source many leads to get your simulation to work. There is no one location where everything is deposited. There are quite a few inductor models solved in the comsol application library but it may not directly help you. > >You can do more complicated components in another 3D dwg tool. It can be easier to do it that way but you are limited in dimensional parameterizing within comsol. Also, since you want to do a broadband simulation using modeling magnetic materials, this is pretty challenging. I might offer a suggestion in a piecemeal approach. Well, a I said, the product I want to simulate consists of a metallic housing with a CM choke and some capacitors in it, connected by means of floating conductors. So, is there a limited number of elements for a mesh with COMSOL? Can I ask you which 3D tool are you referring to? As I said, mine is a feasibility study of filter 3D simulation by means of any suitable software. Thanks

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 2 years ago 5 mag 2022, 10:24 GMT-4

Hi,

There are many choices for 3D s/w. Solidworks, Pro E, sketchup, blender etc. Some are free and others not so much. Putting the time into learning any of these is quite steep as none of them are easy. Finding somebody good at these programs would save you time.

For example blender is free (iirc, or used to be). There is a youtube video of making a toroid here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjMihXT6igs

I don't think blender is that easy to use based on this video but it seems to be a popular program.

There is no limit in meshing parts in comsol, but you need to resolve enough detail to get accurate answers. If you are serious about doing this 3D model then I would start with modeling the capacitors. Its a lot less complicated then a CM choke.

Hi, There are many choices for 3D s/w. Solidworks, Pro E, sketchup, blender etc. Some are free and others not so much. Putting the time into learning any of these is quite steep as none of them are easy. Finding somebody good at these programs would save you time. For example blender is free (iirc, or used to be). There is a youtube video of making a toroid here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjMihXT6igs I don't think blender is that easy to use based on this video but it seems to be a popular program. There is no limit in meshing parts in comsol, but you need to resolve enough detail to get accurate answers. If you are serious about doing this 3D model then I would start with modeling the capacitors. Its a lot less complicated then a CM choke.

Note that while COMSOL employees may participate in the discussion forum, COMSOL® software users who are on-subscription should submit their questions via the Support Center for a more comprehensive response from the Technical Support team.