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how to find the average concentration in 2-D diffusion problem?
Posted 8 mar 2010, 12:19 GMT-5 5 Replies
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Hi,
I have a 2-D dynamic diffusion problem. I would like to know how to compute the average concentration over the 2-D subject?
Thanks in advance,
Xin
I have a 2-D dynamic diffusion problem. I would like to know how to compute the average concentration over the 2-D subject?
Thanks in advance,
Xin
5 Replies Last Post 8 mar 2011, 13:42 GMT-5
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Posted:
1 decade ago
Hi
In a general sens an average value of a variable. let us say "T", is obtained by an integration coupling Variable:
If you integrate "T[K]" over an edge or a surface (boundary), respctively a volume (sub-domain) you get a value of dimensions [K*m], [K*m^2] repsectively [K*m^3], therefore to get the average value you must then divide your integration by the total edge Length, surface Area respectively Volume that is obtained by integrating the value "1" ove the edge, area, or volume, and off you go.
I agree that it could be so much easier if COMSOL wrote out the equation of the integration coupling variables but basically, how I understand it, it's the integration from "0" to "L" of the arc length of your expression "*ds", or a double integral over the boundary (area) of the expression "*ds1*ds2" etc. These integration could also be expressed as related to your reference coordinates, with the start end ending positions of your edge, boundary sub-domain respectively.
Now there is neither no clear explanations how this integration is really performed, I assume it is done in analogy to the "Postprocessing" edge, boundary or sub-doman "integration" functions. In there you have a "smoothing" and an "advanced" sub-tab. The latter allows you to select "summation" over the nodes or an "integration" in both cases you can define the order of the polynomial used to improve the integration value. Just as the smoothing allow you to select how the lower level elements (points w.r.t edges, edges w.r.t surfaces ...) are defined with respect to their neighbors (i.e. a the value of a variable on a point can be averaged over the neibouring edges attached to the point, or the value on an edge from the neighbouring surfaces etc.
At least this is my interpretation of the integration variables, and has been successfull to me so far.
One way to experiment this is to draw a circle if radius "1" in 2D, to mesh it as extremely coarse (I get a dodecagone perifery), to do a "solve get initial values", and have a look at the postprocessng geometrical properties, as well as a bundary integration along the perifery (=2*pi*r) with summation 1st, 2, 4 th order and an integration (the smooting has no effect on a circle like this I believe, use a cople of adjacent squares to play with that functionality).
Note that the "summation" gives you an ordinary sum (and COMSOL does no add the default [m], [m^2 respective [m^3] in the units section). The summation of the circle (=24 as I have a dodecagone from the mesh) is not the sum of the four 1/4 circles or the 4 quadrants (24 <> 4*7=28) because of the 4 common points (28-4=24).
While the integration gives you a value in the correct units and is close to 2*pi, in fact even better if you select a 2nd order intrpolation, than a default "auto" 4the order.
As the help files says, "summation" is typically used for reaction forces.
Hope this helps
Ivar
In a general sens an average value of a variable. let us say "T", is obtained by an integration coupling Variable:
If you integrate "T[K]" over an edge or a surface (boundary), respctively a volume (sub-domain) you get a value of dimensions [K*m], [K*m^2] repsectively [K*m^3], therefore to get the average value you must then divide your integration by the total edge Length, surface Area respectively Volume that is obtained by integrating the value "1" ove the edge, area, or volume, and off you go.
I agree that it could be so much easier if COMSOL wrote out the equation of the integration coupling variables but basically, how I understand it, it's the integration from "0" to "L" of the arc length of your expression "*ds", or a double integral over the boundary (area) of the expression "*ds1*ds2" etc. These integration could also be expressed as related to your reference coordinates, with the start end ending positions of your edge, boundary sub-domain respectively.
Now there is neither no clear explanations how this integration is really performed, I assume it is done in analogy to the "Postprocessing" edge, boundary or sub-doman "integration" functions. In there you have a "smoothing" and an "advanced" sub-tab. The latter allows you to select "summation" over the nodes or an "integration" in both cases you can define the order of the polynomial used to improve the integration value. Just as the smoothing allow you to select how the lower level elements (points w.r.t edges, edges w.r.t surfaces ...) are defined with respect to their neighbors (i.e. a the value of a variable on a point can be averaged over the neibouring edges attached to the point, or the value on an edge from the neighbouring surfaces etc.
At least this is my interpretation of the integration variables, and has been successfull to me so far.
One way to experiment this is to draw a circle if radius "1" in 2D, to mesh it as extremely coarse (I get a dodecagone perifery), to do a "solve get initial values", and have a look at the postprocessng geometrical properties, as well as a bundary integration along the perifery (=2*pi*r) with summation 1st, 2, 4 th order and an integration (the smooting has no effect on a circle like this I believe, use a cople of adjacent squares to play with that functionality).
Note that the "summation" gives you an ordinary sum (and COMSOL does no add the default [m], [m^2 respective [m^3] in the units section). The summation of the circle (=24 as I have a dodecagone from the mesh) is not the sum of the four 1/4 circles or the 4 quadrants (24 <> 4*7=28) because of the 4 common points (28-4=24).
While the integration gives you a value in the correct units and is close to 2*pi, in fact even better if you select a 2nd order intrpolation, than a default "auto" 4the order.
As the help files says, "summation" is typically used for reaction forces.
Hope this helps
Ivar
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Posted:
1 decade ago
Ivar,
Many thanks for the explaination. In line with your explaination and Xin's case, do you know how integrals are calculated over a deformed mesh? and how to find that area to calculate an average?
Many thanks for the explaination. In line with your explaination and Xin's case, do you know how integrals are calculated over a deformed mesh? and how to find that area to calculate an average?
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Posted:
1 decade ago
Hi
No not in detail, I havent found that in the doc, but you must define on which frame you are calculating, and I expect COMSOL to use the same principles, in each case
normally it remains the integration of "1" over the area, but on the deformed mesh
look carefully on the integration coupling variable GUI, when you add an ALE you get a frame option added in to define on which frame you want to calculate
Good luck
Ivar
No not in detail, I havent found that in the doc, but you must define on which frame you are calculating, and I expect COMSOL to use the same principles, in each case
normally it remains the integration of "1" over the area, but on the deformed mesh
look carefully on the integration coupling variable GUI, when you add an ALE you get a frame option added in to define on which frame you want to calculate
Good luck
Ivar
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Posted:
1 decade ago
Hi Ivar:
I'm using a COMSOL heat transfer module (time dependent) for my Laser surface heating model. I'm using line integration for measuring temperature vs time. I can able to get the data for temperature, but temperature is in (m*K) unit. I go through the manual as well as blogs/forums and found that we have to divide this temperature (m*K)... with lenght of the line which is of unit m. Is this true? Is there any other way to get the temperature in unit Kelvin directly?
Pls guide.
Hitesh
I'm using a COMSOL heat transfer module (time dependent) for my Laser surface heating model. I'm using line integration for measuring temperature vs time. I can able to get the data for temperature, but temperature is in (m*K) unit. I go through the manual as well as blogs/forums and found that we have to divide this temperature (m*K)... with lenght of the line which is of unit m. Is this true? Is there any other way to get the temperature in unit Kelvin directly?
Pls guide.
Hitesh
Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam
Posted:
1 decade ago
Hi Ivar:
I'm using a COMSOL heat transfer module (time dependent) for my Laser surface heating model. I'm using line integration for measuring temperature vs time. I can able to get the data for temperature, but temperature is in (m*K) unit. I go through the manual as well as blogs/forums and found that we have to divide this temperature (m*K)... with lenght of the line which is of unit m. Is this true? Is there any other way to get the temperature in unit Kelvin directly?
Pls guide.
Hitesh
yes. there is also an average operator in comsol 4.x
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Comsol 4.1
Ubuntu 10.04.1